[PODCAST THEME MUSIC FADES IN]
CATIE:
Welcome to the PetSpace Podcast! Don’t be fooled by the name—on today’s episode, our guest Nathan Kehn, AKA Nathan the Cat Lady, is very much repping for the cat guys. But, as Nathan explains, there wasn’t much space for a male cat lover years ago online, so he gamed the system and played into the cat lady stereotype. At the time, the aspiring actor was truly trying to show off what he’s got. Now, Nathan the Cat Lady is a full-time influencer with his three cats by his side. Nathan is here to dispel the connotation that it isn’t cool to own cats, tell us more about how he rose to internet fame and then channeled it into a full-time gig, launched his own app-based game, and even touches on the time he pitched a cat dating app on Shark Tank. While Nathan continues to produce unparalleled cat content, he is sure to keep one thing at the center of his universe: purpose-driven work. Get ready to channel your inner cat lady—here’s Nathan Kehn, AKA Nathan the Cat Lady!
[PODCAST THEME MUSIC FADES OUT]
CATIE:
All right. Nathan Kehn, welcome to the PetSpace Podcast!
NATHAN:
Thank you for having me, I love it.
CATIE:
Welcome to sunny Playa Vista. Little chilly today.
NATHAN:
A little bit, but not as bad—last night was like, 30 degrees or something, and windy.
CATIE:
Frigid.
NATHAN:
Yeah, so today is pretty good.
CATIE:
Yeah, we're so excited to have you as a representative cat GUY, but most people would know you as Nathan the cat LADY.
NATHAN:
[laughs] Yeah.
CATIE:
So I want to go down this journey with you. You've had a lot of Internet success, viral sensations. Take me through the world of Nathan the Cat Lady. Where did this all start?
NATHAN:
So this all started—I was an actor, I still am an actor, but I was, you know, trying to build up my acting career, and this was like, right when social media was becoming a thing, where it’s—and it got to the point where I would go to an audition and it would say, you had to write down how many followers you had, which was super weird. It's not something I'd ever dealt with, and I was losing jobs because I had 700 followers on Instagram.
CATIE:
They were like, "oof." [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah, I would do—I would end up doing the casting, the callback, everything, and then they’d put me on avail, which means like, I'm on hold for the job. And then they'd say, “Oh, can we see your Instagram?” and I was like, “I guess?” Like, I'm posting what I had for breakfast, like, it’s not good, but…
CATIE:
Sure.
NATHAN:
And then, they would release me from the job. So I started doing skits, because that's what I did through high school; I did the Friday announcements, so I was like, I know how to do funny skits, that’s what I do.
CATIE:
Sure.
NATHAN:
I started doing those, and then I did a couple of videos with the cats, and they just took off and went viral. And I was like, “Oh, people like the cats.” So I started doing just cats, and nobody cared, so I sort of went back to just me—nobody cared—and then I did some with me AND the cats and then boom, viral again. And I was like, “Okay, we’re leaning into this.”
CATIE:
Wow.
NATHAN:
And yeah, one night I changed my name from Nathan the Cat Lady to… I tried Cat Daddy—big mistake, didn’t know the other connotation.
CATIE:
Oh, yeah. There may be another cat daddy out there. [laughs]
NATHAN:
Well, there—and I didn't know Jackson at the time, I also didn't know how many people in America needed a daddy, and that got weird.
CATIE:
Oh, oh… so that went down a real tragic—[laughs]
NATHAN:
Immediately. Immediately. No, my DMs that night—I was like, I don't even want to open these. And so I switched, I was—at the time I was dating a girl who had a big following, and everyone was like, “Oh yeah, who's that crazy cat lady guy?” And I was like, I like that. I was like, I like being the crazy cat lady.
CATIE:
The cat lady guy.
NATHAN:
So I switched it to Nathan the Cat Lady, and… [I’ve] just been kind of working to change the stereotypes on cat ladies ever since.
CATIE:
And did you wind up booking more jobs once you got this following?
NATHAN:
Yeah, actually! Once the following blew up, I think it was the next year, I had auditioned for a couple of Lifetime movies, and I did the initial read and they were like, “Okay, we want to do a callback,” and instead of a callback my agents just sent my Instagram and they were like “Oh, nope. That’s the guy. That’s the guy.”
CATIE:
Boom. Booked.
NATHAN:
Yeah. And it's, it's been like that with a bunch of jobs where, like I'm up for a big movie right now, and I didn't even read—I sent him some of my acting footage, and then they saw my social media and they were like, “Oh, this guy's great.”
CATIE:
What a world! That’s amazing.
NATHAN:
Yeah!
CATIE:
What a way to save time, really. You have a whole library and portfolio just—
NATHAN:
I mean that's the thing, yeah. It’s—you know, because I can do whatever I want, because it's my social media. So I'll do like an action scene, I'll do a horror skit like it's—I wake up, whatever I wanna—
CATIE:
Oh, I went on a deep dive, I've seen the portfolio now. [laughs]
NATHAN:
Oh, I love it. I love it.
CATIE:
So with this amassed portfolio now, that—you've obviously had really wonderful success with, when did the love for cats start? Were you always a cat lady slash guy? Were—or, you know, when did this all begin?
NATHAN:
Oh, yeah. I mean, it always—I grew up loving cats, and my original job I wanted, was—I wanted to go into zoology, like I wanted to study big cats, so my room as a kid was—I had tigers and panthers and posters and plants—
CATIE:
The big cats.
NATHAN:
Yeah, it was a jungle. And then I grew up with three cats and two dogs, so I always had cats. And then, I moved to LA because I was like, “You know what, no. I think I want to go into acting, like I think that's where I'm at.” And I just never thought the two worlds would collide again, and it just—I kind of fell into it, you know?
CATIE:
It's pretty incredible how they've collided.
NATHAN:
Yeah, no, it was—and it was such luck of the draw, I mean—the cats, I didn't even look to get cats you know, with the cat distribution system. I—my old roommate got a cat, [named] Pickles, and just wasn't taking care of him. And he was home by himself a lot, so I was like, “Hey, let's get a second cat. I'll split it with you, but it's your cat. I just want Pickles to have a friend.”
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
So we got Ginger. They bonded, they were doing great. And then when he was moving out and I was like, “Hey, I know you don't like, spend a lot of time with them, you're going to keep them together though, right?” And he said “I don't know, I might get rid of one of them. Ginger kind of sucks.” And I was like—
CATIE:
First of all, poor Ginger! [laughs]
NATHAN:
I know! And she is a sweet—she's such a daddy's girl, like she's such a sweetheart. I was like “Okay, I'm gonna take the cats.”
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
And he was like, “Oh, okay, if you want them…” and I was like “Okay, this was the right call.” So I got them, [I] got Annie from the street, you know—again, distribution system as always.
CATIE:
Cat distribution system. Can you talk about the cat di[stribution system] for those that don't know; for the dog people who may be listening?
NATHAN:
Oh yeah, all right, the—okay.
CATIE
Because—most people acquire their dogs [in] a very specific way.
NATHAN:
Yeah.
CATIE:
The cat distribution system is kind of luck-of-the-draw.
NATHAN:
Yeah, exactly, that’s—I love it, it’s—for a lot of people, they call it the cat distribution system, where someone will just be walking down the street and a kitten will run out of the trees and just like, climb their leg, and they're like, “Oh, I have a kitten now.” And it's—that's just kind of how people—a lot of people find their cats. It's—I heard a comedian talking about it, and he was just like, “Yeah, if you ask someone how they got their dog, they’re like ‘Yeah, I went to the Humane Society, I paid $100. Like, how did you get your cat?’ ‘I was eating at a Taco Bell—
CATIE:
Yeah. [laughs]
NATHAN:
—and I looked over in the dumpster and there was a kitten, so I picked it up and took it home.’” I mean, it's—
CATIE:
And that was that, yeah.
NATHAN:
That's that, yeah. THEY find YOU, and I love it.
CATIE:
Truly. I think cats definitely find the people they are meant to find. So, you're a cat—you're not a cat influencer, your cats are influencers now—
NATHAN:
Right.
CATIE:
How many do you have now?
NATHAN:
Now, I have three. Long story, I had to let go of my fourth one who now lives with my old roommate, but I just have three now: Pickles, Ginger, and Annie, and I—
CATIE:
And they're influencing.
NATHAN:
They are influencing. Pickles did his first—or, not his first; his second commercial the other day.
CATIE:
Oh wow, Pickles!
NATHAN:
Yeah, yeah. I was proud, and he crushed it. I was a little worried, but he was on a leash, he nailed it.
CATIE:
Amazing.
NATHAN:
I would bring him over to the product and say “sit,” and he would sit in front of the product and wait—
CATIE:
Wow!
NATHAN:
I mean, he crushed it. I was so proud of him.
CATIE:
Talk about an ambassador for rescue.
NATHAN:
Right?
CATIE:
I think that's what's wonderful: when you see cats, it doesn't necessarily need to be like, the most purebred cat ever.
NATHAN:
No. Well, and that's why I love—so, I went to the CFAs this year. You know, the Cat Fanciers’ Association, and it's—there's always been this huge clash between rescue and the CFAs, because CFA has always been… the breeder cats, the show cats, but they're now opening it up to rescue cats, and—
CATIE:
Oh, great.
NATHAN:
Yeah. They're like—they're finally like, “No, let's have rescue cats in here.” So me and my buddy, Sterling the Trap King, we were like, “We’ll support this now.” Like, now we're getting rescue[s] in? Like, let's start bridging the gap a little bit.
CATIE:
Right.
NATHAN:
And yeah, and there was gorgeous cats there that are just, you know, found them in a shelter, you know?
CATIE:
Right, yeah. And that's what's so wild. I've worked in a few shelters, and you see Siamese, you see the flame point, you see… I'm not great at cat classification, I'll be the first one to admit it.
NATHAN:
I'm terrible at it. [laughs]
CATIE:
But, you see them in shelters and people are always shocked. So, it's wonderful that organizations like that are starting to recognize that you can—
NATHAN:
Oh yeah, I mean—I mean, I just fell in love with your little chocolate kitty that you have! I’ve never seen a brown cat, and—
CATIE
Yeah! Strange little brown cat, and she was most definitely through the streets, like—
NATHAN:
Yeah.
CATIE:
You just never know what's going to come out of—out of a couple cats havin' a good time. [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah. I love it, I love it.
CATIE:
So your cats are acting, you're acting, you're influencing; how have you channeled all of these kinds of gateways into a little bit of fame and stardom into helping save lives?
NATHAN:
Yeah, so that—once my following took off, I… I kind of—I was like, “You know, I should start branching out a little bit,” you know, some more. And, I found a cat cafe, and it’s Cate Cafe Lounge, down in—off Sepulveda. Kind of [in the] Culver City area, and I reached out to them and I was like “Hey, I'd love to come in, and I'll promote your cats for adoption,” you know, and just switch it up.
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
And I went there for Catman Bingo Nite—
CATIE:
Oh, that sounds fun.
NATHAN:
—and I met Sterling the Trap King and Cat Man of West Oakland. And, you know, they're all, rescue, TNR, everything. And I was like, “Oh, I didn't really know what TNR was. Like, what's TNR?”
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
They started explaining it, and once I started realizing, like, how bad the problem is, I was like, “Oh, I—I want to help, like I have this huge following list.” So then I started reaching out to rescues and working with Sterling. He brought me—we went to Florida with one of our—my sponsors and did a whole big TNR session. We did like nine cats in two hours, and—
CATIE:
Cool!
NATHAN:
It was like—yeah, so it's become—him and I have kind of merged, like he was only—his page was all rescue.
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
All rescue, all the time. Mine was all entertainment, and I was like, “No, let’s—let's merge.”
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
So now we do funny skits together on his page, and then he helps me do rescue, and—yeah. Now I work with like, Stray Cat Alliance, Kitten Rescue LA, like, all these rescues trying to just—
CATIE:
All amazing organizations.
NATHAN:
Yeah, and it's been phenomenal, just getting cats rescued. It's like, I have the following now, why not?
CATIE:
Has your audience that's used to like, you being the entertainer and your cats being entertaining, responded well to your rescue efforts?
NATHAN:
Oh, absolutely. They—I mean, they—they love it. I think if anything, they loved it more, because now it wasn't just “Oh, I'm just doing it for the fame and myself.” You know, they're like, “Oh, no, he's—it's helping,” and it's, it's great because my following is amazing. I love—I'll go to, like, Milo’s Sanctuary for instance. And, almost every time I go there, I go Live for 30 minutes and we raise $500 almost every time.
CATIE:
Great. Can you talk a little bit about Milo’s Sanctuary?
NATHAN:
Yeah. So Milo's is a special needs sanctuary, so they're all seniors [and] special needs, and I mean the stories are—it's horrific. It's hard to see. There’s—
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
A lot of the cats are missing limbs, a lot of blind kitties from abuse... I was there the other day, and there was a cat that had been shot with a BB gun and they had to remove a leg. I mean, they're just the saddest cats, but they're so loving. The blind cats especially love attention.
CATIE:
I met my first blind cat at the last shelter I worked at, and I swear to God, that cat could see.
NATHAN:
Yeah.
CATIE:
Like it was—it knew where you were going, it would look at you… blind cats are some of the most incredible rescued animals I've ever met. They really know what's going on.
NATHAN:
Yeah. I don't know how they do it, but I love blind kitties, like they're adorable. So, I got connected with them, and… yeah, no, I helped do fundraisers for them. We did—one month, where I just put a fundraiser for a month on my page and said, “Hey, let's help out Milo's,” and I think we raised just under $10,000 in a month for them.
CATIE:
Wow!
NATHAN:
And it's been great. Like, I mean—yeah, I'm putting it up, but they're donating. Like, my following is just amazing. Anytime there's a cause I'm like, “Guys, can you help out?” and—
CATIE:
And they're behind you.
NATHAN:
Yeah, we raise the money. It's, it's really great.
CATIE:
That's great. So speaking of, like, an internet community, could you have ever imagined that you'd have this following and your cats would have this following and people would respond the way they respond to everything you put out?
NATHAN:
No, I—if you asked my mom, my mom would have said yes, because she, so like I said, I—
CATIE:
[Laughs] Well, moms know best.
NATHAN:
It’s funny. I did the Friday announcements in high school, which was like, every week, me and my buddy wrote little, short, 30-second skits for all the following week's announcements. And we took state for best announcements, so—
CATIE:
Best announcer? Wow.
NATHAN:
Yeah, and it was—
CATIE:
Wow! [laughs] Where was this? What state was this?
NATHAN:
Oh, this was in Colorado.
CATIE:
Wow.
NATHAN:
At Monarch High School. And my mom would always say—she was like, “You know, those Friday announcements, those are gonna come back. You're gonna do something with those someday.” And I'm like, “Mom, when am I going to make short little skits other than like, commercial advertising, which I don't want to do?”
CATIE:
Right.
NATHAN:
And it was just a joke, where she would always be like, “they're coming back!” And now I essentially do Friday announcements for a living.
CATIE:
I was gonna say—wait, can we revive the Friday announcements? [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah. I mean, it's exactly what I do now. Like I get—because I have sponsors now, and they give me products and say, “Make a skit with this.” Like, that's literally what I do for a living and it's so funny. She loves to say “I told you so.”
CATIE:
Yeah, those Friday announcements are paying off bigtime.
NATHAN:
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
CATIE:
So, can you talk about some of the sponsors you work [with]—like it's, it's amazing that… I think Internet Catdom is so cool and quirky and it's just—every person I've talked to who is a cat person just lives so wide on the internet, and it's even—I'm a dog, I'm more of a dog person. I do love cats, now that I've been in this industry, but I have no dogs on my For You page. I have no—it's all cat Internet content. And I'm dying laughing, like peeing in my pants because these cats are so unique and incredible. Can you tell me a little bit about like, your travels as an influencer, and like, really amazing collaborations you've done and how that's kind of evolved?
NATHAN:
It's, it is wild, because it’s—it really has become—and I just went full time with it, three months ago—
CATIE:
Congratulations!
NATHAN:
Thank you, thank you. Yeah, a lot of people didn't know I was, I was a full-time sales executive at a lead gen company for the last eight years.
CATIE:
Oh wow, wow.
NATHAN:
I just never told anybody, because it's not very exciting.
CATIE:
Right, yeah.
NATHAN:
But yeah, it's—I was looking at the numbers the other day. I think I've worked with over 120 brands since I've started.
CATIE:
Wow.
NATHAN:
And it's not just pet [related]. I mean, I've worked with, like, Lovesac; I've worked with Amazon; I've worked with vacuum companies; I've worked with—because, as long as I can use the kitties in the products, it's like I can—I can do anything.
CATIE
Yeah, it makes sense.
NATHAN:
And—but I've narrowed, like, my—I have consistent sponsors, like, for food: Weruva, because I love their food. It’s—It's amazing food; I love the story of where it came from. The owner and his wife found a cat, and they just took it home and went to go buy it food, and they were like, “I don't like any of the ingredients in any of this.”
CATIE:
Sure.
NATHAN:
And his dad had, like, an import/export company of shrimp, so they started making their own food and then selling it door-to-door, and now they're here. But we've been doing things with them where we—I organize these trips now where they'll send, like, $40-50,000 worth of food, and we go to rescues and we feed colony feeders, so people who feed the kitties in their neighborhood.
CATIE:
Love it! The community cats.
NATHAN:
Yeah, so we just—we just give it away.
CATIE:
Wow!
NATHAN:
Yeah, so we go to big events a lot—
CATIE:
The cats are on the hotline like, “Guys, they're—the good stuff’s here.” [laughs]
NATHAN:
Oh my gosh, the cats go nuts for it. Cats are used to just, like, random dry food.
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
They go nuts for it. So yeah, I've been trying to do, like, four or five of those trips a year. And then I've got, like, Catalyst Litter; it's a sustainable softwood, and—because I didn't really realize how bad clay litter was for the environment and for your pets, you know, with dust and stuff, and now I've, like, learned about that. So I have them and—
CATIE:
What an educational process this has all been!
NATHAN:
That's the thing, I'm learning so much. Like, I look back to how, when I first got cats I was—I had a bowl of dry food that I, I couldn't even tell you the brand.
CATIE:
Sure.
NATHAN:
And a bowl of water next to him, and that was it. I'm like, “That's what you do with cats.”
CATIE:
Enjoy! [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah, and now I'm like, “No, you have to have water fountains because they like moving water, and you need wet food because 90% of their moisture comes from food,” and like it's, I haven’t—I've learned so much, because not only am I making funny videos and working with brands, but I get to work with like Jackson Galaxy who like, teaches all this stuff and I get to work with all these people that just teach me everything along the way. And you know, I work with vet techs who are like, “Oh yeah, don't do this,” too. So now people come to me, and I—for the record, I in no way consider myself an expert.
CATIE:
Can you—we'll borderline-expert you. [laughs]
NATHAN:
And that's the thing, I—I know a lot, but I—so many people come to me and they’re like, “Hey, this is my cat and it’s doing this,” and I always say I’m like, “Okay, well I don't know anything about cats,” and then they ask me, and I'm like, “Well, I do know that.” And then they ask me something else and I’m like, “Well, I do know that—”
CATIE:
“Well actually, this one time I learned…” [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah, but I did learn—so it's like, I don't know. Maybe it's imposter syndrome, but like—
CATIE:
Well you—you amass knowledge as you, as you spend more time in an industry.
NATHAN:
Yeah, yeah.
CATIE:
Like, you had mentioned you didn't know a thing about TNR—trap, neuter, return—before, and it sounds like now you're pretty purpose-driven within this, within this industry.
NATHAN:
Oh, yeah, yeah. I go out and—yeah, I work with LUXE Paws; LUXE Paws does a lot of TNR in LA—
CATIE:
Wow.
NATHAN:
And yeah, I've gone out and trapped with them multiple times; I have—I have my own traps in my garage for this.
CATIE:
Do you have any crazy trapping st—trapping stories are my favorite. Can you explain—first of all, can you explain trapping a little? And then, do you have any crazy stories?
NATHAN:
Yeah. Oh, of course. So TNR; trap, neuter, return; is—you go find feral cats, you set out a humane trap, put food in it, you catch them, you bring them in, you get them fixed, snip the ear so other people know, and then you return them, because there's—there's just too many cats for all of them to have a home. Some of them, they're just—at some point too feral, or they just would do better on the street. But you get them fixed, and it just reduces the population, reduces disease, all of that. So, that's TNR, but… yeah, crazy TNR stories. I mean, I feel like every time I do TNR, it's a crazy story.
CATIE:
Yeah. [laughs]
NATHAN:
And so, I’ve got two stories: one because it's currently relevant, and I could still use some help with these three. The other one is one of my first times trapping, and there was this little orange tabby, whose name is now Tang and has been adopted—
CATIE:
Cute.
NATHAN:
We were at this place, and this guy had 20… easily 20 adults, and I don't even know how many kittens running around his property. And we didn't—we didn't know.
CATIE:
Which will make a lot of—20 unaltered cats will make a lot of cats.
NATHAN:
Oh my gosh, it just—yeah. They—they keep breeding; it's insane. So we went there, and we were trying to trap, and there was this one little orange kitty under the car and I was like, “Guys, we have to get this cat.” And I was with a bunch of seasoned—I was with LUXE Paws, I was with Sterling, and they were like, “Yeah, man. Like, if we can't get it, it's fine.” Like they're—not hardened but they're, they're—
CATIE:
A little desensitized.
NATHAN:
Yeah, they're—
CATIE:
I find myself falling into it sometimes, too. You can do what you can do; you learn you can do what you can do.
NATHAN:
And you—I mean, you have to be like that in rescue; otherwise, you get compassion fatigue, and you burn out. And I’m not there yet, so I—
CATIE:
Yeah. You were still bright and shiny. [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah, I was like—yeah, fresh, I was like “Oh, we have to save this kitten!” I spent… I want to say, 45 minutes to an hour just circling this car trying to get it, and I would like, give it a treat and then try and scruff it, and it would run away. And finally, Jackie at LUXE Paws was like, “Okay, I think I have a kitten trap at my place.” She drove like 20 minutes or so, got her trap, came back, and we set up the kitten trap—
CATIE:
Cursing you the whole way, like “God, this newbie…”
NATHAN:
Oh, yeah, I could tell. And I was—I was being so rude too, because I'm sitting there trying to get it and then someone would be talking and I'd be like, “Shut up, you're gonna scare the kitten!” Like, I was losing my mind over this kitten.
CATIE:
[Laughs] Very important mission, people.
NATHAN:
Yeah. And so we finally got her, and that was Tang, and she got adopted; got a home. I was super happy about that.
CATIE:
Great, worth it.
NATHAN:
Yeah. But recently—so I got these three cats. Somebody reached out and said, “Hey, my HOA, or—my mom feeds these two cats. They had an owner here—an elderly lady—she passed away; they put the cats outside, they've been living outside ever since—”
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
“—but the HOA doesn't want them here anymore. They're talking about poisoning them, they're talking about putting out pepper to scare them away or get them euthanized.”
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
And I was like, “I… Okay.” And I can't—I can't say yes to everyone who emails me because I get them every day, but—
CATIE:
Yeah, there's no way.
NATHAN:
—there was something about this one. I was like, “Okay, I’m—let me bring my traps. I'll go.” So I went, and it took us six hours the first day to get both cats, because—and I was sitting on a wooden stool in their living room, just watching the trap for six hours—
CATIE:
[Laughs] A stakeout!
NATHAN:
Yeah. And so, I got them; I was like, “Sweet, I nailed it,” I brought them in. A week later, she sends me a picture of one of the cats, and I'm like, “What do you—what is this?” and she goes, “Hey, there's a third. There was twins.” No one knew that they were twins because they only saw one at a time
CATIE:
Aww, oh no. It was a Mary-Kate and Ashley moment. [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah, and I was like, “I just took this cat's entire family in one sweep,” so it was probably terrified. It was sitting at the door, begging for food. I went back—another six hours—got that cat, but—and so—at first, they were very feral, but they're bonded to each other. Now, they've been in the shelter so long that you can pet them, they’re—but they are… we've been having the hardest time. We were going to try and rehome them to like, a working cat program; an outside program.
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
At this point, it's been… six, seven months of them being in this small enclosure, and they’re used to people now—
CATIE:
Yeah. And if they had a human—yeah.
NATHAN:
Yeah, exactly. So they can't go back outside, but we absolutely need a foster right now, so if anybody is willing to foster three beautiful kitties, the story’s on my page, I can—
CATIE:
We'll share it.
NATHAN:
Yeah, and they can become a Nathan's Foster, which I should’ve mentioned—
CATIE:
Oh, tell me about that!
NATHAN:
Yeah, that's a good segue into Nathan's Fosters. So, Nathan's Foster is—right now it’s through [the] Stray Cat Alliance. But I grabbed… this was a drunken Christmas idea—too much rum and eggnog—
CATIE:
The best kind.
NATHAN:
Yeah, it was—it was Christmas Eve and I was drinking rum and eggnog, and I was like, “Man, I know it's so hard to get fosters,” and I was like, “You know, I have all these sponsors, what if they just all donated a bunch of stuff as like, a welcome bundle?”
CATIE:
Yeah!
NATHAN:
So I messaged—at the time it was Tiffany who was working there—I was like, “Hey, drunken Christmas idea: what if I get my sponsors to put together a bundle, call it Nathan's Fosters, and you get, you know, all this stuff?”
CATIE:
All the things, yeah.
NATHAN:
And she was like, “Let's do it.” So it's grown since then, but it's seven sponsors, and now, if you—go to Stray Cat Alliance or to me, and I'll connect you and say, “Hey, I want to be a Nathan's Foster,” not only will you get a cat to temporarily babysit—that's all it is, it’s like Blockbuster for cats; you just rent it.
CATIE:
Yeah, perfect.
NATHAN:
But you get an amazing carrier, you get food for a month, litter for a month, cat grass, toys, electric toys—there's a small tower now, there was a windowsill—it's a $550 welcome bundle.
CATIE:
Wow, everything you need.
NATHAN:
Yeah, it's everything, so there's no more excuses for people who are like, “Oh, I just can't afford it. I don't—” it's like, it’s everything.
CATIE:
Well, you know, it's interesting in LA. I think what I run into the most is, you know, everyone's in show business, we're in LA. And everyone's like, you know, “I travel so much for work,” and I'm like, “No, you are the ideal foster.” I was talking to someone this weekend who was like, “Well every three-and-a-half weeks I'm out of the area for work,” and I'm like, “Yes, so you have a timeline where you can find your—the cat you're renting, babysitting, fostering, a new home, or at least give it a break from the tiny kennel, or at least give it, you know, a little reprieve and give it a little break and a home for a minute.”
NATHAN:
Exactly, and that's all it is, is it’s, you’re just—they’re waiting for their forever home, they're just not at the shelter.
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
And if you foster fail, fantastic.
CATIE:
Yeah, no, that's a win.
NATHAN:
Yeah, always—always a win for the foster fail. But yeah, but those three cats right now, I've been visiting them, and it's—it breaks my heart every time because they're just so—so their names are Princess, Wesley, and Buttercup.
CATIE:
Oh, so they're—[laughs] Princess Bride.
NATHAN:
Yeah. I originally named them Wesley and Buttercup because it was a blonde and a black kitty, and I was like, perfect.
CATIE:
Cute.
NATHAN:
And then we found the third one and it was like, “Oh, oops.” So, Wesley—yeah. But reach out to Stray Cat Alliance or me, because I would love to just give them a break; just give them a house or an apartment or—
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
—because they're in like a four-by-six-foot cage, and have been for six [or] seven months.
CATIE:
Yeah, cats don't do well in tiny environments.
NATHAN:
No.
CATIE:
I don't think everyone realizes that, either, is that… you know, cats get upper respiratory infections really easily in these kenneled environments, so giving those three a break would be incredibly appreciated. So we’ll definitely—yeah.
NATHAN:
It would be huge, yeah. And you get the big welcome bundle, the like $550 welcome bundle, which you can keep as soon as you're done, you know, and they get a home. You keep the bundle, so…
CATIE:
Unless you want to bring in another rented cat, foster cat. [laughs]
NATHAN:
[Whispering] Do it, do it. Become addicted. [laughs]
CATIE:
Are there any other like, initiatives that you're working on right now? I know—so you have Nathan's—
NATHAN:
Fosters, Nathan’s Fosters.
CATIE:
Fosters, yeah. Are there any other rescue-type initiatives you’re working on, or you're just actively out there trapping, kind of going to the rescues, promoting?
NATHAN:
Yeah, there's—I mean, there's a lot of things I'm trying, and it’s—I just recently got management, because I was trying to spin so many plates. I was like, “I want to help this shelter; I want to help them; oh, I gotta make creative content; oh, I have my this and that,” and—
CATIE:
You're a one-man band.
NATHAN:
Yep. And I ended up—I actually collapsed in Vegas.
CATIE:
Oh, no!
NATHAN:
Yeah, it was—I was at Super Zoo, which is like one of those big conventions, and that was my fifth convention of the month.
CATIE:
Yeah, it’s—that’s huge. Wow.
NATHAN:
And then I was supposed to fly out that evening and go to Meowfest in Canada. And me and Sterling were running through the casino in our bathrobes, because we rock bathrobes to the events because we're crazy cat ladies. And all of a sudden, like, my heart squeezed up and I couldn't breathe and it just went down. I spent two days in the hospital. And I was like, “Okay, slow down.”
CATIE:
Time for a break.
NATHAN:
So… But I still have all these things I'm working on. I'm… Yeah, we have Nathan's Foster's; I started working with the Beagle Freedom Project.
CATIE:
Oh, great.
NATHAN:
And, they rescue beagles from testing labs, and I didn't realize until last year they rescue kittens too, but all of their following is dog people.
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
And so, no one ever cares when they post cats, which is super frustrating, but—so I partnered with them and got a bunch of cats adopted for them, and then… yeah, just one—you know, I’m working with Weruva and setting up some more donation sessions. I mean—
CATIE:
You've really parlayed this kind of viral internet fame into, like, hands-on helping. Which I think is incredible, because a lot of people would probably take it and run—
NATHAN:
Yeah.
CATIE:
—and make it all about you, but you've really channeled this into helping probably hundreds of thousands of cats at this point, because you have such a reach. So, congrats on that.
NATHAN:
Well, yeah, and like I said, the following alone, I mean, I was—I haven't done the math, but I mean, I'd say last year alone, not even in… if I looked at just, like, food and supplies from the brands—
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
—we're looking at a couple hundred thousand dollars easily, just in the amount of products I've gotten donated, but in just money from my following, I mean, I'd say… fifty, sixty thousand easily in money that they've donated to these organizations.
CATIE:
That’s amazing.
NATHAN:
And that's, I mean, just a testament to my following and how generous they are, which is amazing.
CATIE:
Congrats, cat lady following. You're really pulling it through for the cats.
NATHAN:
Exactly, I love it. I love it.
CATIE:
Now, I also heard you have a new video game.
NATHAN:
I do. [laughs] Yeah.
CATIE:
I'd love to talk about this video game, because I’m definitely one of those people that grew up, like, building—the roller coaster game, where you like build the—
NATHAN:
Rollercoaster Tycoon? Oh, yeah!
CATIE:
Yes, I'm one of those people. Is this game similar? Tell me more about it.
NATHAN:
Similar; it's, it's—I'd say more, yeah. I'm there on the lines of, like, Sims kind of thing.
CATIE:
Okay, great.
NATHAN:
So, you're playing as Nathan, the cat lady. It's called Nathan's Cat Craze, but it'll come up if you type in Cat Craze just because they're weird about how many words you can use in a search. But Cat Craze, and—yeah, you're playing as me, and you're… the whole goal is you adopt cats—
CATIE:
Great.
NATHAN:
—you make them do tricks, then you get a following; you get coins, you buy supplies, and then you're upgrading your apartment and you're building and scaling up, which is—it's kind of funny, because that's—for those of you who have been following me for a while, my old apartment [had] bright red walls. It was just a tiny little apartment [with] bright red walls, that—when I first started, was—it was a bland, white apartment with borrowed brown furniture. And as it grew, then I had all these amazing cat shelves and red walls, and—
CATIE:
The vertical, the horizontal… [laughs]
NATHAN:
Exactly, everything; and so we started expanding. And then, now—I just moved again, now I've got a four-floor townhouse that I'm expanding with cat stuff, so… you're getting to play as me in the game, and rescuing cats, growing out—and obviously, it's a little exaggerated. You can build out the space and have like—there's workout equipment, there's like a space theme, there's like, eventually you evolve—
CATIE:
Sure.
NATHAN:
They're still growing the game now; they're even starting to—like, where you can have multiple rooms for your cats, and we're even working on trying to get the cats to, like, dance and do tricks when you do, so it's really fun. We launched that a couple of months ago; it’s a free game.
CATIE
Great. And it's been doing well?
NATHAN:
Yeah, it's been doing well!
CATIE:
Has everyone tagged you in their cat adoption collections? [laughs*]
NATHAN:
Exactly, yeah. It's been doing really well. Like I said, it's a fun, addicting game. You just—you pull up a couple of times a day, like make the cats do tricks, buy supplies… but it's ever-evolving, so if you originally downloaded it and you were like, “Oh, okay, it was—you know, I reached the end of it.” Well, it's—it's evolving, so it's gonna keep growing, stay with it.
CATIE:
There’s more.
NATHAN:
But yeah, it's Cat Craze, and it's—it's kind of fun to have, like, a mobile game for being a 30-year-old cat lady who does videos in my apartment.
CATIE:
Yeah! I mean, and—and again, you've wrapped adopting a cat into it. You've, you've wrapped this cause, this purpose-driven work into a video game, which probably goes to many, many people who may consider adopting, may not be considering adopting, or you change their mind because of this game.
NATHAN:
Oh, yeah.
CATIE:
I'm also assuming that younger crowds can play it, and getting that kind of notion into a younger mind is really important as well.
NATHAN:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think anything I do now—and I was very clear with my new management about this—anything I do now, I want it to have some aspect of helping rescue. Even a couple of years ago, Sterling and I launched a dating app called Tabby, which was a cat person’s dating app—
CATIE
You were on Shark Tank!
NATHAN:
We were on Shark Tank, yeah.
CATIE:
Shark Tank is my ultimate favorite show.
NATHAN:
[laughs] Yeah!
CATIE:
Can you tell me about the experience? Good experience, amazing?
NATHAN:
Oh man, it was—it was an experience, I—so I mean, as an actor, I audition for things all the time. I will say I was probably more nervous before I went onto that set than I've been to everything.
CATIE:
Ever.
NATHAN:
Plus, we, it was just—we had a lot of hiccups days before. We had to, like, rebuild the app and everything, like, before we launched on, and—
CATIE:
Because it’s huge visibility.
NATHAN:
Oh, yeah. Huge. And they specifically make you nervous.
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
And, we'd been working for five months for that episode, and they do NOT let you rehearse your opening thing. Every time we'd go to rehearse—because you have two minutes that you have to nail it.
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
And plus, we had a joke in ours; it was a very inappropriate joke, IF you time it wrong. If you time it right, it's hilarious, because we made a joke about how me and Sterling both get rejected by women because we love the same thing: puss*… cats.
CATIE:
[laughs]
NATHAN:
And so we each had a kitten in our hands, and I mean, they lost it when we did that, like Mark Cuban was making puss*cat jokes the rest of the episode, and they cut them all out. But I mean, it was a great experience. It was tough, because they really like to make you sweat—
CATIE:
Sure.
NATHAN:
I mean, we were in the room for like an hour, and they just grilled us for like an hour.
CATIE:
So it's real, the pressure is real.
NATHAN:
Yeah, it’s real. Yeah. But um, yeah, I mean, it was—it was a cool experience, the app—in the end, it didn't move forward, so I mean, it's on a shelf right now.
CATIE:
Sure.
NATHAN:
If I can ever get a sponsor, or someone to revive it—
CATIE:
To resurrect it—
NATHAN:
Yeah, it's there. But it was a cool experience, and I got to go on national TV and talk about being a cat lady and breaking the stereotype, which was—
CATIE:
In your bathrobe, right? [laughs]
NATHAN:
In a bathrobe, of course, and with a glass of wine, too.
CATIE:
Sure.
NATHAN:
I asked them; I was like, “Hey, can I drink wine on here?” and they were like, “Uh, what does that have to do with—” and I was like, “I'm a crazy cat lady. We drink wine,” and they were like “Oh, sure!”
CATIE:
Yeah. It’s on brand, people; stay with us.
NATHAN:
Yeah, exactly. So I bought a bottle of wine and filled it up, and I didn't get to bring my hoverboard, which was a shame because I have a—during COVID, we started a thing: my Wine Wednesdays—
CATIE:
Yes.
NATHAN:
—where I would do a live stream, drink a bottle of wine, ride my hoverboard in a bathrobe... I don't know how exactly it escalated to that, but—
CATIE:
How that built. [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah, but during COVID, it was crazy times; there was no judgment.
CATIE:
It was a hit.
NATHAN:
But it was—oh, it was so fun. We had… probably like, 3000 people on my Live every Wednesday.
CATIE:
Wow.
NATHAN:
And we'd play drinking games, and then I would host, like, a private Zoom call after that you bought tickets for; it was the after party. But I started doing that again, actually, I think three weeks ago? I did, I did my first Wine Wednesday in my new place because I was like, “I wonder if people still want to do this?”
CATIE:
And do they?
NATHAN:
Yeah, I had 2700 people in the Live—
CATIE:
Wow!
NATHAN:
And we did—I sold ten tickets to the after party, so it was just a small group of ten, but we just sit and drink and play games—
CATIE:
An intimate affair. [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah, it—well, it's a cool way for me to meet people, like, in other states that don't get to do meet and greets or other countries, even.
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
We even used to do—and this was, again, during COVID where it was like, “Let's just drink everyday; what else are we doing?”
CATIE:
Bar none, yeah.
NATHAN:
Yeah, exactly. We did Mimosa Saturdays, where I would do a live stream in the morning with mimosas and then do an after party. And man, we'd get the overseas people in the after parties, like, Irish and German and they were so much fun.
CATIE:
And were they cat—they were true cat people too?
NATHAN:
They were true cat people! It was just all-out fun, drinking—
CATIE:
So this was just, like, cat brunch?
NATHAN:
It was so much fun. We would just play drinking games, and like, it was just cool to like, expand the cat community, because—
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
I love the cat community. They are so, like, loving [and] heartwarming and then just fun. They're just like, a fun group of people.
CATIE:
It's kind of the opposite of the—like, the stereotype, where it's kind of like, you're holed up in—like—the crazy cat lady is holed up in their house, and doesn't want to interact, and a little aloof and, and a little nervous, and that’s not it.
NATHAN:
Yeah, no no no no no. Cat ladies—they are crazy, but in the best way possible.
CATIE:
Sure.
NATHAN:
I love cat ladies. Anytime we've gotten to conventions, and it's like after the convention, they're out there drinkin’, havin' fun, like, they're that—and that's part of the reason I pushed so hard against the whole—
CATIE:
Stereotype?
NATHAN:
—stereotype is, and I get it mostly from—and, now here's the thing. I'm going to put the mic closer…
CATIE:
Yeah, please.
NATHAN:
Cat people love dogs too, always. Cat people always love dogs, but dog people for some reason just hate cats and cat people. I don't know what it is.
CATIE:
Okay, dog people: we've got to pull up our slack a little, here. [laughs*]
NATHAN:
Step it up, guys! Because it's—I'm always amazed how blunt they are with it, like they—with no shame, [they’re] like, “Oh, cats are gross. I hate cats.”
CATIE:
I have to say, I was a little bit of a cat hater before I got into rescue work and sheltering. And I didn't understand them, but I think through people like you, through actually interacting, I think it was just a lack of interacting with cats.
NATHAN:
Yeah.
CATIE:
We had dogs growing up, and that's all we had. And I just didn't have a lot of exposure to them, but really seeing what, like, fascinating animals they are and the complexity [of] cats, and then the people who love them—really, CatCon drove it home for me, it was just—
NATHAN:
Yeah.
CATIE:
—they wanted to talk, they wanted to be in that community and they were like, “These are my people,” and I think you exemplify it, too—there's like, this deep love and admiration and connection through it.
NATHAN:
Yeah. Well, and that's, you know, the stereotype of like, the crazy cat lady who is at home in a bathrobe, drinking wine with 20 cats—
CATIE:
By herself, yeah.
NATHAN:
By herself, and, and you know, it’s—there are a lot of aspects to that that are true, but I've learned where that comes from, and it's because so many of these women that I've met because—I'm gonna say, like, most people in rescue are women—
CATIE:
Female, yeah. Big time.
NATHAN:
—they’re female, yeah. And that’s just what it is. There’s the occasional guy you see in your like—you know, you’ve got like, Chris Poole who's doing a lot; you got Sterling the Trap King; you’ve got Adam of West Oakland—
CATIE:
Yeah; [and] you! [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah, and now I'm getting into it and like, there are a few, but they immediately stand out because there's just hundreds, and—the women who are doing it, the reason that they're like—in, you know, just like, random jogger clothes, and like aren't dressing up. And it's because they're putting all of their time and money into helping these cats because there's not a lot of funding out there, and it is a continuous problem, and you don't realize it until you get into it and you're like, “Oh my gosh, like, I saved 20 cats today.” Cool, well, there's 40 by the dumpster over there—
CATIE:
Yeah, and there's 3 million more over that way. [laughs] Yeah.
NATHAN:
Yeah, it just doesn’t stop. And they just have so much heart that they're putting—their entire lives go to this. No, I like—if I can do this little bit, like Milo’s—
CATIE:
It takes the pressure off of them.
NATHAN:
Yeah, even when I was in Colorado, I saw they were doing a live stream. And I looked at it, they had… I think they had 30 people in the Live, and they had raised a hundred dollars. Their goal was five hundred, and I asked to join the Live; I jumped in, I was on it for 20 minutes.
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
And we hit five hundred dollars in 20 minutes, just from my followers seeing I was Live with them and boom. And it's like, sweet, so I—20 minutes out of my day, and that helped give them five hundred dollars to help with food—
CATIE:
Totally worth it.
NATHAN:
—vaccines, health. And it's like, anytime I can help them—because they're, you know, they don't have the reach that I have; they don't have the resources to make it as easy as I—because it is easy for me to do, to raise it.
CATIE:
Yeah, no, I mean—
NATHAN:
I’m just like trying to help them; they deserve it.
CATIE:
You balanced it. You found a little bit of a balance of, you can make a difference and still look out for yourself at the same time. What about the cat bros? How do we—how do we get more guys in on this? What is your advice?
NATHAN:
You know, it’s… Well, here's the thing—
CATIE:
Honestly, get—get in it for the ladies, if you want! [laughs]
NATHAN:
I know! Guys, they're EVERYWHERE. It's growing.
CATIE
Yeah.
NATHAN:
Because when I started in 2019, 2018, something like that, I went to my first CatCon and I got interviewed by… I think it was KTLA [who] interviewed me, and they were like, “So what are your goals?” I'm like, I'm like, “I want to make cat dads trending. It’s—I want cats to—”
CATIE:
Loud and proud, yeah.
NATHAN:
“—be as trendy as dogs are.” Because there was—there was like, Sterling, Jackson, Chris Poole, and I think, like, one other guy, I think his name was Travis, who did like, setups with his cats. That was it on social media; there were no cat dads. And now, like, years later, I had a magazine reach out to me and they were like, “Hey, we want to talk to you about how cat dad is trending on TikTok, and like, we want to interview you about it,” and I was like, “Oh, it's getting there,” because I think—
CATIE:
This is happening.
NATHAN:
Yeah, I think guys are now being like, “Oh, it's not like a feminine thing, like, I don't have to be so self-conscious of it.” And I mean—I'm not saying I did this, but I hope that I contributed to this, which, of—leaning into the stereotype and being like, “Oh, this is what a crazy cat lady is like.” Well, cool. Well, I'm gonna wear a silk bathrobe, I'm going to drink wine, and I'm going to be with cats, and I'm going to look cool while doing it.
CATIE:
Yeah!
NATHAN:
And I think it just kind of helped. Because you know, the fastest way to stop somebody from making fun of you is [to] make fun of yourself, and then it's like, “Oh, it's not fun anymore.” And now—
CATIE:
Yes. Well also, the fastest way to get someone not to make fun of you is to have a huge following, and land all these brand deals, and also help save lives. [laughs]
NATHAN:
Yeah, exactly. That too! I mean, that's—
CATIE:
Get on board, people!
NATHAN:
Nothing like walking the red carpet with celebrities and being like, “Yeah, we’re cat dads and proud of it, so what are you gonna do?”
CATIE:
Yeah, that’s great.
NATHAN:
Yeah, it's like—guys, if you have cats, like, no more shame, because it's amazing. I was at lunch with this group of people and I mentioned it; I was like, “Oh, yeah, I got four cats at home.” And the guy across from me was like, “I have cats!” He was like, “I just don't tell anybody because I get made fun of.”
CATIE
[Laughs] He whispered it from across the room.
NATHAN:
Yeah, he was like, “I get made fun of for it.” I mean, he was a model and I'm like, talk about it, do it man!
CATIE:
Oh, yeah.
NATHAN:
And here's the thing for me, and I've been—I switch the narrative a lot, because, you know, everyone’s like, “Oh, crazy cat ladies,” like, “They're gross” or whatever. I do a lot of content where I'm like, “Oh, if somebody hates cats, that's a psychological disorder,” like it's a proven disorder.
CATIE:
Red flag.
NATHAN:
Yeah, I flip it to be a red flag. Obviously, some people like—I've met a lot of guys that have been converted, or girls that are like, “Oh, I hated them, and then I met one and now I get it.”
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
My buddy Alec's the same way. He—he didn't hate my cats, he just—he was allergic, he didn't like being around them—
CATIE:
Yeah.
NATHAN:
—until he met this outdoor cat that started visiting him every day. Now he's like—
CATIE:
The distribution system found him. [laughs]
NATHAN:
Exactly. He's like, “What do I feed this cat? Can I give it treats? Like, how do I—?” and he is, he's like, “Dude, I get it now, like, they pick you and it means so much more,” and like, he's so into it. But I just—I'm switching the narrative so that if nothing else, I just want people to stop being so toxic about it.
CATIE:
Yeah. It’s a pretty polarizing [thing].
NATHAN:
It's amazing—yeah, like if I walked up to somebody with a dog and I was like, “Ugh, I hate dogs, they're gross,” I would get canceled immediately.
CATIE:
Yes.
NATHAN:
But I've had girls—to my face—be like, “Oh, cats are disgusting.” I had—I met this one girl, and I literally had my cat, and she was like, “Oh, you have cats? Oh, gross.” She's like, “I hate cats.” I was like, “Don't talk to my cat like that; easy.” Them's fightin’ words, you know?
CATIE:
And you said “Okay, see you later, bye!” [laughs]
NATHAN:
Oh yeah, immediately. Like immediately I cut those people out, because I'm like, the fact that you're so confident in being able to say that to me, I'm like, “No.”
CATIE:
I think it's pretty incredible. You're doing—you're doing good work. It's incredible how you've found this platform and you're influencing people to be loud and proud about what they love, and it's their cats. And, if everyone who is a dog person but wants to convert to cat—a cat person, if they want to be inspired by your work, how can they find you on the interwebs?
NATHAN:
Yeah, “Nathan the Cat Lady.” I've made it pretty easy: Facebook, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram—
CATIE:
All the platforms.
NATHAN:
Yeah, Snapchat—I think Snapchat’s a different name. I think it's like CatLadyNathan, because I couldn't fit Nathan the Cat Lady or something. But yeah, Nathan the Cat Lady everywhere, and again, if you guys can foster those three kitties or just want to foster, hit me up. But yeah, hopefully keeping—
CATIE:
Join for Wine Wednesday.
NATHAN:
Join for Wine Wednesday.
CATIE:
Download the game.
NATHAN:
Download the game, yes. Cat Craze. It's free. Go, go give it a shot, it's free.
CATIE
Yeah. Well Nathan, thanks for joining us today, this was a blast.
NATHAN:
Absolutely.
CATIE:
And shout out to all those cat dads.
NATHAN:
I love it, thank you.
CATIE
Thank you.
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CATIE:
The PetSpace Podcast was brought to you by Wallis Annenberg PetSpace. To learn more, please visit Annenberg PetSpace dot org [annenbergpetspace.org]. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a rating, a review, and be sure to share with your friends. Don’t forget to follow us on Instagram at PetSpace Podcast [@petspacepodcast].
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